Thread: Do you prefer 24P 96hz or 60hz?

Originally Posted by brownriggd

I also have a VT30 and set it at 96Hz but also set the motion smoother at the 'weak' setting which minimizes judder. The inherent 'video' look of film that the smoother causes is minimal as well....

Shouldn't be any judder at 96 Hz, with or without the smoother (judder being the stutter-step effect created by 3:2 pulldown). Any jerkiness you see from 24p material viewed at 96 Hz would just be a consequence of the low frame rate used for film.

Originally Posted by rahzel

Frame interpolation/motion estimation on LG displays is called TruMotion, and I always leave that disabled. Judder is the sole reason frame interpolation was created, specifically for LCDs because they handle motion worse than Plasmas. I'm starting to see Plasmas include this technology, and I honestly don't know why... pretty much no one likes this effect.

When frame interpolation was first introduced on LCDs, the stated reason was to reduce motion smearing on fast action, such as in live sports. Maybe that was only part of the story, but it's easier to just do the 5:5 for film. Anyhow, the appearance in plasmas is probably just feature-itis -- don't want anybody buying that other set because it has something ours doesn't.

Originally Posted by Pothog

This confuses me. Anyway, I can't really tell a difference between 96hz or 60hz on my D7000. It doesn't seem to do a lot compared to my LG 60PK550 72hz mode. The 72Hz mode on the LG is the best 24p processing I've seen. It is far and away better than Cinema Smooth on the D7000. on the LG 72hz is always on when being fed 24p signal. From fast action to pans to the credits at the end of the film, the LG is smoother by astronomical proportions. It blew my mind when first watching 24p in 72hz on the LG. Even the end credits scrolled so smooth there was never any doubt it was working well.

This being said. 96hz on the D7000 doesn't seem to even do anything. I was highly disappointing by this and I don't even use it. Cinema Smooth on the Sammy's is next to useless and LG's implementation blow it out of the water in this aspect. Of course the Sammy's counter punch is it's beautiful PQ.

It's going to depend on what these various modes actually do. Straight 3:3 processing from 24p to 72p will prevent the uneven cadence that 3:2 pulldown to 60 Hz causes, but it can't overcome the inherently poor motion resolution of 24 fps. It's still going to look a little bit jerky sometimes (horizontal pans, especially) because it is a little bit jerky. Frame interpolation can smooth that out but tends to look a little odd to me.

Originally Posted by rahzel

After reading the thread Kevin Miller started about 96Hz on the VT30, I see there's issues. He seems to recommend outputting 60Hz from the player (meaning the player does the 3:2 pulldown) and setting your VT30 to 60Hz. Some players may do a poor job, so outputting 24p from your player and letting the TV do the 3:2 pulldown (setting your TV to 60Hz) may give better results.

There's no better or worse to 3:2 pulldown, only right or wrong. And it's so simple you can count on your player doing it right when it needs to. Kevin is suggesting that you use the conventional approach, which is to convert 24-fps material to 60-Hz video using 3:2 pulldown and display it in this format on the TV. This is clean and straightforward, but you will get judder from the pulldown. The alternatives on a VT30 are to output 24p and display at 96 Hz, which apparently causes some problems of its own, or to output 24p and display at 60 Hz, which one normally would expect to result in 3:2 pulldown being applied in the set with the same net effect as the first scenario. The mystery with the Panasonics is that this doesn't seem to be what happens -- the cadence is correct, which implies that either the set is somehow not doing 3:2 pulldown or is doing some frame interpolation. This has never been satisfactorily explained, at least that I'm aware of.

Gt30 is pretty damn smooth at 60hz though!

Originally Posted by MDRiggs

There's no better or worse to 3:2 pulldown, only right or wrong. And it's so simple you can count on your player doing it right when it needs to. Kevin is suggesting that you use the conventional approach, which is to convert 24-fps material to 60-Hz video using 3:2 pulldown and display it in this format on the TV. This is clean and straightforward, but you will get judder from the pulldown. The alternatives on a VT30 are to output 24p and display at 96 Hz, which apparently causes some problems of its own, or to output 24p and display at 60 Hz, which one normally would expect to result in 3:2 pulldown being applied in the set with the same net effect as the first scenario. The mystery with the Panasonics is that this doesn't seem to be what happens -- the cadence is correct, which implies that either the set is somehow not doing 3:2 pulldown or is doing some frame interpolation. This has never been satisfactorily explained, at least that I'm aware of.

Indeed!

Wow, some great discussion.

Well watch Thor tonight and my "shoot from the hip" unscientific theory is PS3 set to 24P, VT30 set to 96hz is inferior to setting the VT30 to 60Hz... still with 24P engaged on the PS3. Just way too much judder. It seems like there's a threshold where everything is fine with movement. But once the motion on screen exceeds that mark it just falls apart as the image "hick-ups" across the screen.

In 60Hz the effect is greatly reduced and more pleasing to watch. All reason points to 96Hz being superior but to me, the laymen, it certainly is not.

Well, I can say one thing, I'm damn impressed with the GT30 on 60hz 24p in and 1080p/24 from the oppo. It's looks phenomenal, actually better than cinema smooth.

I just finished watching Casino Royale with PS3 outputting 24hz and my GT30 @48hz and since I updated to the 2.1 patch and calibrated the settings on THX I could hardly notice any strobing/flicker in this mode.I played fine to me without any judder or hitching as well.

I wonder if the 2.1 patch helped smooth things out because prior to the patch I watched Employee of The Month and I could easily see the flicker or unless my eyes have become adjusted to this mode.

Could anyone who updated to 2.1 watch a film in 48hz and has his tv settings adjusted to their room environment tell if they can see the strobing/flicker.

Originally Posted by Jason Whiddon

Well, I can say one thing, I'm damn impressed with the GT30 on 60hz 24p in and 1080p/24 from the oppo. It's looks phenomenal, actually better than cinema smooth.

Thaw awesome, Jason. Now coming to this realization, I slightly regret paying extra for the VT30, probably would have been just as satisfied with the GT30.

Originally Posted by Fonzi-Baby

I just finished watching Casino Royale with PS3 outputting 24hz and my GT30 @48hz and since I updated to the 2.1 patch and calibrated the settings on THX I could hardly notice any strobing/flicker in this mode.I played fine to me without any judder or hitching as well.

I wonder if the 2.1 patch helped smooth things out because prior to the patch I watched Employee of The Month and I could easily see the flicker or unless my eyes have become adjusted to this mode.

Could anyone who updated to 2.1 watch a film in 48hz and has his tv settings adjusted to their room environment tell if they can see the strobing/flicker.

That's great news. 48Hz produces noticeable flicker on my set as well. My calibrator is making a visit in the next 30 days to install 2.1 and recalibrate color. I'll be interested to see if there is any improvement.

Originally Posted by PlasmaJunkie

Thaw awesome, Jason. Now coming to this realization, I slightly regret paying extra for the VT30, probably would have been just as satisfied with the GT30.

Im really impressed with this set so far. The 60hz handling of a 1080p/24 input seems to be of course like interpolation, but Im not seeing any issues and its not aggressive at all. We just watched In Time, with all the lights out and the image was gorgeous, and very dimensional.

Originally Posted by PlasmaJunkie

Pothog, what did you find disappointing when comparing the 96Hz on the Sammy to the 72Hz on the LG? Was it the choppy judder on pans by chance? I've read some different experiences in this topic but 96Hz on my VT30 can look like a slide show were images jump across (albeit slight) the panel to catch up with the camera. Much smoother at 60Hz.

Sorry for responding so late.

Really that I just couldn't tell that it was doing anything. The 72hz on the LG was much smoother overall. Sometimes, in rare instances it would give SOE, which I don't like. But it wasn't bad at all like you see on LCD's. I know it's irrelevant but the best way to see the difference between the 72hz on LG and 96Hz on Samsung is to watch the scrolling credits at the end of a film. The difference in smoothness can be verified by doing this.

This being said, I send 24p to my D7000 and disable Cinema Smooth to use 3:2 pulldown. The Sammy does it well I think. This seems to actually be smoother to me than 96hz on. I'm not sure why. The overall better PQ, color and blacks on The Sammy so totally overwhelms the Better 24p processing (at least IMO) on the LG it's really mute. I did enjoy it on the LG though. Pretty much blew my mind how well it worked.

Originally Posted by MDRiggs

It's going to depend on what these various modes actually do. Straight 3:3 processing from 24p to 72p will prevent the uneven cadence that 3:2 pulldown to 60 Hz causes, but it can't overcome the inherently poor motion resolution of 24 fps. It's still going to look a little bit jerky sometimes (horizontal pans, especially) because it is a little bit jerky. Frame interpolation can smooth that out but tends to look a little odd to me.

The LG I'm referring to is the 60PK550 plasma from 2010. There is no frame interpolation options in the menu. Could it be possible that they used additional processing in their 3:3 implementation for that model year to add additional smoothing? It's always very smooth and generally natural looking, but on rare occasion you do get very mild SOE.

I see plenty of flicker in 48hz mode.

Originally Posted by Jason Whiddon

I see plenty of flicker in 48hz mode.

Me too. It takes about 2 minutes to determine the proper setting

- Rich

Originally Posted by PlasmaJunkie

Wow, some great discussion.


unscientific theory is PS3 set to 24P

still with 24P engaged on the PS3. Just way too much judder.

I would always run the PS3 at 60hz while gaming. You're decreasing your games rendering frame rate by more than 50% at 24p. If your game can maintain 60FPS (internally in the software/hardware) it will look a lot better than 24FPS (Hz) and it'll play better.

It's gets a bit complicated though when you start getting into it. Just because you have the video hardware on the PS3 set to 60hz (FPS) doesn't mean the processing power in the PS3 can always keep up. Some graphics intense games in some scenes may not be able to hit 60FPS all the time. But there will be other times where the system is capable of producing much more than 60FPS but it'll be limited to 60hz video setting. On average I bet the PS3 frames rates are for sure higher than 24FPS (Hz). Like I said I wouldn't limit it down to 24hz (FPS).

Most Blu-ray movies are created at 24FPS, your video games are not. They will be whatever the hardware/software is capable of rendering. Try not to confuse the two together. For gaming 96hz mode on the VT30 is just 24FPS correctly done, it'll still won't be as good as 60Hz (FPS).