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Thread: Do amp's color sound??

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    Default Do amp's color sound??


    Quote Originally Posted by caliberconst. View Post
    Well the bigger question now at least for you elway is do the outlaws sound like ATI. Now I have not heard an ATI amp before, but quick google search and reading on other message boards tell me they are not that great sounding of an amp, and are not suited for music very well.
    I try not to get involved in these discussions anymore, because so many people just don't want to hear it. But, the truth is that modern transistor power amplifiers functioning within their operating limits (not driven into clipping, for example), having adequately low noise and distortion (routine), and having flat frequency response into the load across the audible band (also routine) are completely transparent. (All they do, fundamentally, is take a small voltage and make it bigger by a fixed ratio, so ...) If you do a careful comparison, you'll find they sound the same unless something is wrong somewhere. All the flowery prose you read about the sounds of various amplifiers is pretty much just that. Tube amplifiers can be a different story, but that's usually because they have high output impedances that result in frequency-response errors when they are connected to a load whose impedance varies substantially with frequency, such as a typical loudspeaker.

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    Default

    I'm guessing its like an oppo and most other Bluray players pq on blu discs. You might pay more build quality, service, etc...

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDRiggs View Post
    I try not to get involved in these discussions anymore, because so many people just don't want to hear it. But, the truth is that modern transistor power amplifiers functioning within their operating limits (not driven into clipping, for example), having adequately low noise and distortion (routine), and having flat frequency response into the load across the audible band (also routine) are completely transparent. (All they do, fundamentally, is take a small voltage and make it bigger by a fixed ratio, so ...) If you do a careful comparison, you'll find they sound the same unless something is wrong somewhere. All the flowery prose you read about the sounds of various amplifiers is pretty much just that. Tube amplifiers can be a different story, but that's usually because they have high output impedances that result in frequency-response errors when they are connected to a load whose impedance varies substantially with frequency, such as a typical loudspeaker.
    I Just have to disagree with this statement, fully. I have had the same speakers in the same spot in the same room hooked to various avr's and amps and can tell you that they do in fact sound different. What you are saying is strictly from a power stand point, which is all true. There is more involved in an amp or avr than just simple power. 1. How all components in the amp/avr are IMPLEMENTED into the design. 2 Processing this is geared more to ward the avr portion of this long on going debate, different brands of processors, diodes,capacitors and implementation of such products will change the way an avr and or amp will sound. Again I have heard the difference in the sound personally, and have done some pretty extensive auditioning with this subject matter.
    Magnepan, B&K, Emotiva, HSU

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Quote Originally Posted by caliberconst. View Post
    I Just have to disagree with this statement, fully. I have had the same speakers in the same spot in the same room hooked to various avr's and amps and can tell you that they do in fact sound different. What you are saying is strictly from a power stand point, which is all true. There is more involved in an amp or avr than just simple power. 1. How all components in the amp/avr are IMPLEMENTED into the design. 2 Processing this is geared more to ward the avr portion of this long on going debate, different brands of processors, diodes,capacitors and implementation of such products will change the way an avr and or amp will sound. Again I have heard the difference in the sound personally, and have done some pretty extensive auditioning with this subject matter.
    I am going to have to agree with Riggs on this brother. This has been proven a number of times already and that site I linked to also agrees with this as do many others. Now when it comes to talking about performance that is another thing entirely. Remember we are talking about listing to amps that are at matched levels and comparing their sonic signature or lack there of as the case should be, and when they are not driven beyond their limits. When you start pushing amps everything changes. Nobody is saying all amps preform the same.

    Before you disagree with what Riggs and I are agreeing on you might want to read this article.

    http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_ppec.htm
    Last edited by AVJeff; 01-01-2012 at 09:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Sorry to sound stubborn and please don't take this the wrong way because I am not trying to sound like a jerk, but I really don't need to read an article to tell ME what I have already heard. So you guys are saying that there is no such thing as a warmer sounding amp and a brighter sounding amp??? I just can't agree with it, I have heard it for my self. BTW there is nothing wrong with us seeing this differently and generating a good clean debate about this. As a matter of fact I will read the article, in hopes some of YOUR experience might wear off on me, because that can only help me to grow, BUT I would like you guys to do the same and a/b test all the amps and or avr's you can get your hands on. Please if or when you do this try to keep any bias you might have out of your mind. IMO reading on a subject will prove nothing in the debate, as the ONLYway to truly test this is with your ears but I surely will read up more on this and be as non bias as I possible can, and also engage in good clean debate about this as much as you guys wish. I would just like to note that I am about the most skeptical person around and do not buy into any so called theroy's or myths. I have developed this opinion before I knew this debate even existed by my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES and had no bias one way or the other.

    I am telling you right now though I did a ton of a/b testing with my HK avr and my onkyo and the difference in sound was absolutely night and day and others in the room agreed. Of course this is an avr, and I don't know if you fellas are referring to avr's as well but I know some do with this debate as well.
    Magnepan, B&K, Emotiva, HSU

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    I'm with caliberconst. on this one. I'm already familiar with Matrix Hi Fi, and I disagree with them fully. That's cool, though: there's nothing wrong with seeing things differently about our audio hobby. I've seen several debates heat way too quickly and get blown way out of proportions on other forums and I've always wondered why. There were people on one of the Italian boards that actually threatened each other with physical retaliation because they couldn't agree on whether cables made a difference to sound. No joke. I was like, "WTF?!? It's just cables!". As a matter of fact, I've got two friends who earnestly believe nothing makes a difference to sound except from speakers and active EQ. Speaking from experience, I completely disagree with them but that doesn't prevent us from being friends, and never prevented me from stating that one of them has one of the best sounding two-channel setups I've ever auditioned (DIY 5-way speakers with more than 30 drivers).

    Btw, the results in Jeff's link sort of prove that things do, in fact, sound differently. Maybe not as markedly different as marketing would have us believe, but still: if there had been absolutely no difference between the setups being tested, no one should've been able to express a preference and 100% of the participants should have been neutral. Instead, 37% said A sounds better, and 26% said B sounds better for a total of 63%: the vast majority could hear a differnce and express a preference.

    And while we're at it, I've got a gem for Jeff: there's a guy on the Italian boards who measured the difference between power cords with professional testing equipment. He doesn't own any of the branded cables put to test (or any other branded power cord for that matter), so he had no bias in the test, and he doesn't believe in anything that can't be measured. In fact, he had run several tests before on other power cords and found no instrumental evidence that they would or could alter sound, but he did this one time. If you'd like to see the graphs and google-translate the thread just fire me a PM

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Quote Originally Posted by caliberconst. View Post
    I Just have to disagree with this statement, fully. I have had the same speakers in the same spot in the same room hooked to various avr's and amps and can tell you that they do in fact sound different. What you are saying is strictly from a power stand point, which is all true. There is more involved in an amp or avr than just simple power. 1. How all components in the amp/avr are IMPLEMENTED into the design. 2 Processing this is geared more to ward the avr portion of this long on going debate, different brands of processors, diodes,capacitors and implementation of such products will change the way an avr and or amp will sound. Again I have heard the difference in the sound personally, and have done some pretty extensive auditioning with this subject matter.
    To isolate the actual sonic contribution of the component, you have to match levels precisely (with a voltmeter) and do randomized blind trials. I used to think all this stuff sounded different, too, until I went through a few such comparisons. I know people who have run dozens, and the results are always the same unless there is a problem somewhere, typically severe clipping of one amp or a frequency-response difference (doesn't take much -- a tenth of a dB over an octave, for example). We all think we're unbiased, until the opportunity for bias is removed. Sean Olive and Floyd Toole did some interesting work a number of years ago showing that listeners' impressions of speaker sound quality were more strongly influenced by brand awareness than by the sound itself, for example. Anyhow, as I said before, people never want to hear this.

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Hi MDRiggs,

    if all electronics sounded the same it wouldn't make much sense to actually design and develop different circuitry for each of them, would it? Companies could save several grands on R&D, and all the engineers working on the innards of our beloved amps and pre/pros would be jobless (and delusional, since their work would be based on nothing) I know my aforementioned friends can arrange tests between level-matched pieces of equipment, so I may eventually decide to go for one and try myself.

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Man - It would be hard for me to believe that there aren't audible differences. I'm in R&D (not audio or video...but nonetheless....) and while in my field you could hand all of us R/D guys the same materials - I doubt that we would all end up on the same page. In fact, I know we wouldn't. There are so many factors involved and they all come into play. Quality control is huge. Not all companies have equal QC - and as a result, some have an advantage in the end product that the consumer buys. That's just one piece of the puzzle.

    Anyway - I'm not an AV guy by trade, but I'm sure my logic applies to some level.

    Very interesting subject!
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    Default Do Amplifiers Contribute To Your Systems Sound Quality

    I have spent 1000's on great amps and I like to think I could tell the difference, however many test say I am wrong......read the blind test below.




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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    I like to think I could... but it's very subtle and only at high volume. My amp supports voltage and current source and yes I can tell the difference between those pretty easy.. when I did head to head.. my Denon A100 vs Sunfire (in voltage mode) honestly most of the time I could not tell....but once I start using the current mode there are more differences for sure.... kinda not fair comparsion though.
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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Quote Originally Posted by ev666il View Post
    Hi MDRiggs,

    if all electronics sounded the same it wouldn't make much sense to actually design and develop different circuitry for each of them, would it? Companies could save several grands on R&D, and all the engineers working on the innards of our beloved amps and pre/pros would be jobless (and delusional, since their work would be based on nothing) I know my aforementioned friends can arrange tests between level-matched pieces of equipment, so I may eventually decide to go for one and try myself.
    Exactly what I am saying, now I have done blind test, same speakers but different amps at my local av shop. Funny because I chose the cheaper amp as my favorite and the salesman agreed!! This was just for fun with no intention of buying anything we were just having some fun. I have also done this in my home and had the same results.

    If you say amps don't sound different it is almost the same as saying all speakers sound the same IMO. The thing about this debate is no one is likely to change anyone's mind on the matter. Now the whole point of this conversation can only be FOR US TO LEARN AND GROW FROM OTHERS EXPERIENCES So that being said I suggest we all spend time testing and researching each others theory's on this subject. That is the only thing we can gain from this!!!! Please keep posting your idea's and experiences!!
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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Well - this comment is about AVR, not a power amp used as a separate.

    I had purchased an Onkyo and had it in my home....instantly noticed how damn "tinny" and "bright" this thing sounded. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it right. Sent it back, bought a Denon...instantly noticed a difference in the sound. Much warmer - much easier on the ears.

    I may be over simplifying this conversation and it may in no way pertain to AVR's. Not sure.
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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    I just realized, we have totally kidnapped this thread. I think it's an amazing conversation and yet it needs it's own thread. Not sure what the hell we would call it.
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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Quote Originally Posted by GOS View Post
    Well - this comment is about AVR, not a power amp used as a separate.

    I had purchased an Onkyo and had it in my home....instantly noticed how damn "tinny" and "bright" this thing sounded. No matter what I did, I couldn't get it right. Sent it back, bought a Denon...instantly noticed a difference in the sound. Much warmer - much easier on the ears.

    I may be over simplifying this conversation and it may in no way pertain to AVR's. Not sure.
    I'm by no means an audiophile but I came across the same thing. Switching from Onkyo to Denon was night and day to my ears.
    L2W you will be missed.

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Quote Originally Posted by caliberconst. View Post
    If you say amps don't sound different it is almost the same as saying all speakers sound the same IMO.
    No not quite because way more variables involved with speakers and they have way more affect on tonal quality than an amp ever does. Heck you can change the way a speaker sounds by stuffing a sock in the port. I have done two precise level matching amp tests with friends. The results were that we were not able to tell one amp from the other at low to normal volume levels. It was only when we started pushing them harder that we could tell things started to change. There is that performance difference that I was talking about. Properly designed solid state amps don't sound warm or bright and in fact they should not impart any sonic signature to the signal at all. Tubes are another story.

    Now there are some speaker that because of their very design could and do cause lesser amps problems. Magnapans for example. I am positive that if I ran my 809 against my XPA-3 with a set of Maggies you would run into problems with the receiver not being able to drive the Maggies. As the receiver gave out it would be perceived as not sounding as good or different as the Emotiva. There are many speaker that could do this. However, put them both on a good set of Klipsch and those differences start becoming much harder to tell and with Klipsch you would reach insane levels before the 809 gave out.

    Daynamics is the biggest thing I think that could be noticed with different amps. However when comparing amps of similar power say an Emotiva against an Outlaw it might be impossible to tell the difference. Those differences only become apparent when comparing a lower powered amp to higher powered amp or aN amp of more robust design over another like my baby Adcom over budget receiver. Again though these are all performance issues not sonic. They only become sonic issues when said amp is driven out of it's usable range.

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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mytime View Post
    I'm by no means an audiophile but I came across the same thing. Switching from Onkyo to Denon was night and day to my ears.
    I felt like there was a noticeable difference in sound between by 605 and 1909.


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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Its really about the source and the loudspeakers....give me great well produced, uncompressed music and fine speakers first. When your oil well comes in then you buy amps that you can't pronounce or lift....
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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.

    Quote Originally Posted by ev666il View Post

    And while we're at it, I've got a gem for Jeff: there's a guy on the Italian boards who measured the difference between power cords with professional testing equipment. He doesn't own any of the branded cables put to test (or any other branded power cord for that matter), so he had no bias in the test, and he doesn't believe in anything that can't be measured. In fact, he had run several tests before on other power cords and found no instrumental evidence that they would or could alter sound, but he did this one time. If you'd like to see the graphs and google-translate the thread just fire me a PM
    I would say his results were flawed if is saying they make an amp sound different. I have read too many tests done by top electrical engineers so I know better. I have also studied electronics and physics myself. I no expert but I certainly understand what the heck is going on. What the heck does an Italian know about amps anyway? He should stick to reviewing wine and pasta.

    p.s My best friend is italian.

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    Default Re: Got an adcom gfa 545.


    Lol
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