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Thread: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by kurochickensoup View Post
    Thank you so much D- nice you are truly the man!!! last questions:

    1. by screen size1 do you mean the HD size in the panasonic menu?

    2. Are your color windows the same (Accupel windows at size 1) and if so, do you use 75% stimuli?

    3. Do you use the dial color down to 40 after cal method? (for ISF Day with mid panel brightness of course.)

    4. Do you use the Accupel at size 1 for gamma too? If not what do you use for gamma?

    This should set me up to finally start calibrating. Thank you so much, I really appreciate it.
    1. Yes
    2. Just use the standard windowed patterns from AVS709. That includes the 75% stimuli Windows
    3. No. My technique for getting the color right on the VT30s in a panel brightness of medium is proprietary.
    4. Use standard windowed patterns. Using any form of APL patterns to actually setup the gamma on these displays will yield an inaccurate result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
    1. Yes
    2. Just use the standard windowed patterns from AVS709. That includes the 75% stimuli Windows
    3. No. My technique for getting the color right on the VT30s in a panel brightness of medium is proprietary.
    4. Use standard windowed patterns. Using any form of APL patterns to actually setup the gamma on these displays will yield an inaccurate result.
    I am working on breaking the code for #3

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    I have no need to leave low panel brightness for 2D in my theater. But I do think I will want to up the brightness in 3D mode. So I am open to techniques that tame mid panel brightness in 3D. Let's work together out loud to see what we can come up with. Chad B suggested using 60% color windows. Another suggestion is to cal with 75% windows and dial back the color control. The real cure is to get Panasonic to flatten the response, thanks for pursuing that Gotchaa.

    D-Nice has worked it out, I can see his point in keeping it close. The technique is directly connected to his income.
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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by LeRoyk View Post
    I have no need to leave low panel brightness for 2D in my theater. But I do think I will want to up the brightness in 3D mode. So I am open to techniques that tame mid panel brightness in 3D. Let's work together out loud to see what we can come up with. Chad B suggested using 60% color windows. Another suggestion is to cal with 75% windows and dial back the color control. The real cure is to get Panasonic to flatten the response, thanks for pursuing that Gotchaa.
    I did speculate that perhaps 60% color windows would help the measurements agree with the visuals. After doing some quick tests, I found the ideal level closer to 50%. The best I have seen so far is when I made some medium sized APL 50% color windows, but I think 50% standard windows will be pretty close. Next time I do one I will experiment further with that.
    I found some variance with having the ControlCAL display being on, so I turned it off while calibrating.
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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad B
    I found some variance with having the ControlCAL display being on, so I turned it off while calibrating.
    What Chad is referring to is the OSD, you can disable it during calibration if you want by pressing the OSD Off Button in ControlCAL. ControlCAL will enable it again upon exit.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurochickensoup
    3. Do you use the dial color down to 40 after cal method? (for ISF Day with mid panel brightness of course.)
    Kevin said he is adjusting the Color control before (to around there). Of course, this is when using Panel Brightness Medium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad B View Post
    I did speculate that perhaps 60% color windows would help the measurements agree with the visuals. After doing some quick tests, I found the ideal level closer to 50%. The best I have seen so far is when I made some medium sized APL 50% color windows, but I think 50% standard windows will be pretty close. Next time I do one I will experiment further with that.
    I found some variance with having the ControlCAL display being on, so I turned it off while calibrating.
    What are you using for a pattern generator and how are you creating your windows?

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    4. Use standard windowed patterns. Using any form of APL patterns to actually setup the gamma on these displays will yield an inaccurate result.
    What is an accurate gamma result, and what does it represent? Far as I know target gamma was never actually defined, and idealistic descriptions, such as dim surround compensation by Poynton, probably don't account for certain practical considerations. At best, my current opinion is that the idea of 'gamma calibration' is a big mess.

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    I agree that currently gamma is a mess as there is no defined target. However, that was not the point of my post. My post deals with attempting to calibrate gamma to whatever target the calibrator chooses via APL patterns on these, or any, PDP.

    Quote Originally Posted by alluringreality View Post
    What is an accurate gamma result, and what does it represent? Far as I know target gamma was never actually defined, and idealistic descriptions, such as dim surround compensation by Poynton, probably don't account for certain practical considerations. At best, my current opinion is that the idea of 'gamma calibration' is a big mess.

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    I don't think you'll get a definitive answer for an "accurate gamma" value. I think most calibrators shoot for a gamma in the range of 2.2 to 2.4, with the lower values targeted for brighter viewing environments, and vice-versa. FWIW, I have our gamma set at about 2.3 (2.28 to be exact) for our typical dim lighting conditions, and it still looks fine for most daytime viewing.

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Most calibrators I know shoot for a gamma between 2.1 and 2.3. 2.35 and higher are highly dependent on the display type and capabiliies (I personally will not do over 2.31/2 on the VT30s).

    I also like 2.28.... on my Kuros and on the VT30s

    Quote Originally Posted by slb View Post
    I don't think you'll get a definitive answer for an "accurate gamma" value. I think most calibrators shoot for a gamma in the range of 2.2 to 2.4, with the lower values targeted for brighter viewing environments, and vice-versa. FWIW, I have our gamma set at about 2.3 (2.28 to be exact) for our typical dim lighting conditions, and it still looks fine for most daytime viewing.

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post
    That is a great summary of my experience thus far as well. I've settled on low panel brightness which is only useable at night with complete light control, while I continue to push Panasonic for a better option than low panel setting for color accuracy.

    Curious what you guys are doing with mid or high to get more light output for ISF day, are your just sacrificing accuracy for light output?
    Gotchaa,

    From the interactions you've had with the Panasonic Engineer, would you say that this non-linear color response aka "color enhancement" in PB med/large is actually is actually a feature that they purposefully put in, or rather that this is a side effect of the panel technology that they use and are trying to sugar coat it as a feature?

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post
    I agree that currently gamma is a mess as there is no defined target. However, that was not the point of my post. My post deals with attempting to calibrate gamma to whatever target the calibrator chooses via APL patterns on these, or any, PDP.
    D-Nice,

    Do you recommend standard windows vs. APL for grayscale adjustments as well? While anxiously waiting for your recommended VT30 settings to be posted, I've been tinkering with grayscale using an old i1 Display 2 (which leaves a lot to be desired with inconsistent results from run to run to say the least) and I get different grayscale measurements using small APL windows vs. large APL windows vs. standard windows.

    Right now, my major changes to THX (my day mode) & Cinema (my night mode) have entailed:

    1. Dropping color down to 45 as it's way too saturated @ the default value of 50 (adjusted by eye after looking at hours of flesh tones on all kinds of content!)
    2. Boosting B-DRV by +12 in the SM (adjusted with the i1D2 using a combo of window & APL patterns)

    While I don't really trust the i1D2 to be the last word in accuracy, the blue drive adjustment does seem to have toned down what appeared to be a visually too-warm "warm 2" color temp pretty nicely. Combined with fixing the color control's over-saturatation, this has yielded a MUCH improved picture overall. Hopefully I'm on the right track and I look forward to your recommended settings!
    Last edited by jkozlow3; 07-05-2011 at 10:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegeX View Post
    Gotchaa,

    From the interactions you've had with the Panasonic Engineer, would you say that this non-linear color response aka "color enhancement" in PB med/large is actually is actually a feature that they purposefully put in, or rather that this is a side effect of the panel technology that they use and are trying to sugar coat it as a feature?
    Don't know for sure as I am stating it's ridiculous to expect people to use low panel brightness as they suggested. What I do know is they are waiting for the Japanese engineers to review my last calibration with low panel brightness and low fL readings and give an explanation how they think this is okay. What I hope is they can and will correct it.

    They asked me today to do another calibration and send them my results and settings. I tried CalMan's auto cal and it did the grayscale it was cool to watch it work, but it was not accurate to my standards, so I will go back to CP and run another low and mid panel brightness.

    The set can be tweaked to look damn good, but it should not have to be this difficult, I want that fixed, and it is why I will persist. Not one pro cal person or software developer has Had anything good to say about the CMS, gamma controls, and white balance...it just takes experimentation, patience to learn how to get it looking right...it is broken IMHO.

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gotchaa View Post
    Not one pro cal person or software developer has Had anything good to say about the CMS, gamma controls, and white balance...it just takes experimentation, patience to learn how to get it looking right...it is broken IMHO.
    Although my opinion doesn't have much weight, I'd have to agree. The fact that a modern day panel can be so hard to calibrate that the procedure itself has enough inherent value to justify keeping it proprietary just reeks of brokenness. It would be one thing if this was a value panel, but this is the top of the line flagship panel of 2011 that is being marketed to a semi-niche group who put performance over cost. I don't know how Panasonic can rationalize this panels response and not expect a great deal of backlash. On the plus side, we've seen a number of cases that prove this panel can put out excellent results if one sacrifices a virgin to the plasma gods and knows the right incantation to recite. That's still a better place to be than not having those kind of results at all.

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    D-Nice's last post

    1. Yes
    2. Just use the standard windowed patterns from AVS709. That includes the 75% stimuli Windows
    3. No. My technique for getting the color right on the VT30s in a panel brightness of medium is proprietary.
    4. Use standard windowed patterns. Using any form of APL patterns to actually setup the gamma on these displays will yield an inaccurate result.

    Number 3 is proprietary! Really! Umm!
    Kevin Miller
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    Email: kevinm@tweaktv.com
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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Of course you and I will talk this weekend

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Noob alert!

    Guys - I'm new to calibrations and I just got the calman interactive package. I was able to calibrate my vt30 to what I think is acceptable to me..

    However I would like to copy the settings from ISF day to custom mode (so I can adjust the settings for 3d). Unfortunately I do not know how to see the actual settings in the ISF mode.. (calman has RGB and L values for each input level at some range I thought was 0-100 and the vt30 has -50 to 50)..

    I tried to adjust converting the 0-100 to -50 to 50 range.. but the custom and ISF mode look completely different..
    Appreciate any help

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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Shout out and a BIG thanks to Turbe. He went above and beyond getting me keys almost in real time after my purchase of ControlCAL in the middle of a calibration session last night. I have to say, this program is a MUST HAVE. I don't see how one could maintain sanity working with the VT30 controls without it. The built in CalMAN controls just don't cut it.

    I did run into a few gotchas during installation so I'll document them here in case anyone runs into similar issues:

    For the record, the issues were as follows:

    I should have read the e-mails more carefully to understand that 1.5 needed to be installed for 2.0 to work. This only slowed me down only a bit, as I quickly figured out that was the case. Before that 2.0 just launched with the terminal window open and didn't give any indication as to what was wrong, and wouldn't really do anything.

    Once I got 1.5 installed, I had trouble launching it under VirtualBox (which I use running WindowsXP to host my calibration tools). Seems ControlCAL 1.5 needs 3D acceleration enabled in order to draw its control surfaces. I was able to get that going enough to install the activation keys. Important to note is that CalMAN 4.0 does not work if VirtualBox 3D acceleration is enabled, so it's a good thing that the ControlCAL 2.0 does work fine with 3D disabled! Once I closed 1.5, disabled 3D acceleration and restarted 2.0, I was good to go.

    Great program so far, I'm very glad I decided to buy it. It is worth the price of admission, and should save me some serious time, though I was already up until 2AM and have just managed to get about 1/2 of one mode calibrated to my satisfaction. These VT30s are murderous with the control interaction.

    -Jim
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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by heckheck View Post
    I was already up until 2AM and have just managed to get about 1/2 of one mode calibrated to my satisfaction. These VT30s are murderous with the control interaction.

    -Jim
    Sure are! I hope they do some serious fine tuning to the control interaction, ABL, and color decoding.
    Your experience sounds similar to mine. When I did my 1st VT30 ISF mode cal, I thought it might take a little longer than the normal 2-3 hours for a Panny plasma... A little longer, HA!
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    Default Re: Official Panasonic TC-PXXVT30 Calibration Discussion


    Hi All,

    The correct gamma setting of course depends on the environment completely. This is the main reason for ISF Day and ISF Night modes. For a dedicated environment with full light control and videocentric color scheme (that is dark gray and black) a gamma of 2.3 to 2.4 would work well. For other environments and for higher ambient light conditions a gamma of 2.0 or so is more appropriate for a Day setting.

    I agree that the VT30s are real bears to calibrate. Thanks to Turbe for all his hard work on the ControlCal interface. It is a lifesaver! I am off to do two 65's today.
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