Samsung plasma wins CNET's accidental burn-in test

[SiGGy]

As an aside, CRTs are (were) not immune either - but it was seldom an issue in TVs, although computer monitors often had problems. Hence the "invention" of Screen Saver Software.

Actually, by the end of the CRTs lifespan even the computer monitors were even immune. I never burnt a Windows "start menu" in with my last generation of CRT's. Which is a beating like no plasma will ever take. Even without the screensaver the start menu was there the entire time I was using the computer (all day, for years). It's mostly about the phosphors used.

[SiGGy]

I went to BB yesterday and looked at the ST, GT, VT and the Samsung 6500, 7000, 8000. i couldn't see IR on any of them. Don't know if it means anything. Just reporting what I saw.

All of the 50 series at my local best buy had ESPN and NBA logos in them (bad). I'm going to go back today a week later and see if it's any better. In all fairness the guy working there said they went from the box to the wall into THX bright room mode and straight to ESPN the 1st week So this is worst case scenario.

[MDRiggs]

Nope, can't find anything there on my 50ST50.
Under Setup-> Advanced Setup
there is only an option to enable or disable the Viera Connect banner which I already had disabled.
I tried that enabled but thats separate and is for an ad that appears at the bottom of the screen when you go to Viera Connect.
What I'm asking about is the Bright White "Viera" that appears only right after the TV is powered on for a few seconds, not related to Viera Connect.
Can't find a way to disable that power on logo display.

Sorry, misunderstood. I don't think the power-on logo can be defeated.

[Dierk]

Actually, by the end of the CRTs lifespan even the computer monitors were even immune. I never burnt a Windows "start menu" in with my last generation of CRT's. Which is a beating like no plasma will ever take. Even without the screensaver the start menu was there the entire time I was using the computer (all day, for years). It's mostly about the phosphors used.

Overall perspective is probably a bit skewed: worked for a small software development company & the monitors that came back from trade shows - some looping the demo app for hours on end, day after day, others proudly displaying the Main Menu - often developed what could only be considered "burn-in."

Have a 17" in the basement work room that still shows a Menu image when viewing a solid light-colored background. Had two of these at one time - both name brands - but gave one away several years ago....


However, would agree that we never had much of a problem with personal use monitors.

[NightHawk]

Sorry, misunderstood. I don't think the power-on logo can be defeated.

Yep, thats what I figured.

[Dierk]

Disappointment tonight: we watched Thorne: Sleepyhead on Encore HD (actually a DVR replay - a decent British crime drama).

Thought I would be "smart" and thus Zoomed the image (using DVR control) several times during the 2:15 broadcast, so that the Encore HD logo spent part of the show in its "normal" position, and part tucked down in the extreme lower right edge of the panel (and partially OFF the panel) - switching positions a couple of times during the show.

The end result is that we now have TWO After Images of the Encore HD logo - one that is mixed up with the remnants of the ESPN 2 logo, plus a partial image in the extreme lower right edge of the panel.

As of now, these are both visible against light backgrounds during normal programs - and that is after a single approx. 2hr 15minute running, with the logo appearing in either location for only about an hour total - and only 30 minutes at a time.


Certainly, experience with this panel thus far suggests that these WILL dissipate given enough time - but note that the ESPN 2 logo remains Ever So Faintly Visible.


Will ramp up the Anti-IR Cautions again - primarily by simply watching "Threatening" broadcasts on one of the other panels - but have a lot of sympathy right now for those who do NOT have that ready option!


Eldest son had encouraged us to consider stepping to a Projector for our basement "HT" area, but we resisted with argument that we wanted a tv that we could watch on the spur of the moment, without having to worry about special treatment - plus, 60" really seems Big Enough at a 9 foot viewing distance in any event!

At least for the near future, it appears that we might have stumbled upon a Functional Projector, at least as far as the Special Care is concerned....

[GOS]

Bummer...

[PeterUbers]

I love it how so many still are convinced that "burn in doesn't exist .. you must be crazy."

[GOS]

I don't want to derail this thread....what amazes me is that I have a friend who has an Insignia plasma (720P)...no clue the model. He absolutely abuses that thing. He watches it for hours on end in his garage....never did any sort of "break in"...could care less how long the screen sits in limbo with a damn PS3 game.... I've been to his place many, many times and I cannot detect any sort of IR or burn in. I just don't get it.

[MDRiggs]

Susceptibility seems to vary, literally, from panel to panel. It's a curious thing.

[SiGGy]

All of the 50 series at my local best buy had ESPN and NBA logos in them (bad). I'm going to go back today a week later and see if it's any better. In all fairness the guy working there said they went from the box to the wall into THX bright room mode and straight to ESPN the 1st week So this is worst case scenario.

We went back last night. It's now a week later, ESPN/NBA logos (and line across the bottom) are still easily seen on both GT50 and VT50; unfortunately there is no ST50 to compare. I beginning to think this pretty much is the end of the line for me and my VT50 I really don't want to sit and baby sit the TV, I want to enjoy it. I'll have to make a decision sooner or later...

[Dierk]

We went back last night. It's now a week later, ESPN/NBA logos (and line across the bottom) are still easily seen on both GT50 and VT50.... I'll have to make a decision sooner or later...

Yes, can see a line running across the lower part of the screen that I ASSUME is a remnant of the ESPN streaming update.
That actually does not bother me nearly as much as the IR from the logos: for whatever reason, do not "See" the line during normal programming, whereas the darn logos do show up against light backgrounds during the course of watching a show.

To be fair, of course, I KNOW that the IR exists, AND Precisely Where the logo images are located - being thus "Sensitized" makes it easier to spot the flaw.

Best of luck with your VT50 - whatever you decide!

[Hi Resolution]

We went back last night. It's now a week later, ESPN/NBA logos (and line across the bottom) are still easily seen on both GT50 and VT50; unfortunately there is no ST50 to compare. I beginning to think this pretty much is the end of the line for me and my VT50 I really don't want to sit and baby sit the TV, I want to enjoy it. I'll have to make a decision sooner or later...

I feel the same way, so tell us what do we buy?

[TWD]

All of the 50 series at my local best buy had ESPN and NBA logos in them (bad). I'm going to go back today a week later and see if it's any better. In all fairness the guy working there said they went from the box to the wall into THX bright room mode and straight to ESPN the 1st week So this is worst case scenario.

One thing I should point out. I have been to BB several times since they got the VTs in. In all cases they were running the demo loop. No static logos or ESPN as far as I can tell.

[maygit]

In my old store, we had the 50" GT30 set up playing "Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs: 3D" In Vivid. Usually the movie would only get played once or twice throughout the day and basically sit for 8 hours a day in the menu. It took about 3 full months of this abuse before "Menu", "Setup", etc. had been officially burnt into the screen, however it was only very faintly noticeable in a solid color screen and could not be seen in real world content. To me, this is unrealistic abuse and is why from my experience, i don't see burn in as a worry in a home environment. It baffles me when people post on here that they have bad image retention/burn-in after very little use. I've looked hard on my parents 2 plasmas at home (old 42" 4253h Samsung plasma, and 50" ST30) and the hundreds of plasmas on display in my store over the years and the only company i've seen with easy IR/Burn-in issues in person is LG.

[PersianImmortal]

In my old store, we had the 50" GT30 set up playing "Cloudy With A Chance Of Meatballs: 3D" In Vivid. Usually the movie would only get played once or twice throughout the day and basically sit for 8 hours a day in the menu. It took about 3 full months of this abuse before "Menu", "Setup", etc. had been officially burnt into the screen, however it was only very faintly noticeable in a solid color screen and could not be seen in real world content. To me, this is unrealistic abuse and is why from my experience, i don't see burn in as a worry in a home environment. It baffles me when people post on here that they have bad image retention/burn-in after very little use. I've looked hard on my parents 2 plasmas at home (old 42" 4253h Samsung plasma, and 50" ST30) and the hundreds of plasmas on display in my store over the years and the only company i've seen with easy IR/Burn-in issues in person is LG.

To be fair, having seen three generations of Panasonics, from the 2005, jumping to the 2010 and my most recent 2011 GT30, there's definitely been an increase in susceptibility to image retention on Panasonic plasmas. Absolutely no question about it, whatever changes are being made to the way the panel is constructed and driven for the purposes of power efficiency and lower blacks/higher contrast ratio have also made it much easier to get IR. The confusion once again arises from the fact that IR is not burn-in. IR is temporary and can eventually be removed, burn-in is permanent physical damage to the panel. Of course it's understandable that the average person will not care about this distinction, because if they get very stubborn IR that takes many, many hours to heal, it may as well be permanent in their eyes. But I believe this is why reviewers and experts keep stating that actual burn-in is extremely difficult to get, because technically it is.

The dilemma arises as to what people should do to avoid worrying about stubborn IR. I personally think that in the first 200-500 hours, while the phosphors are settling, the TV should be restricted to full-screen content with absolutely no logos or static portions shown. I know there's debate about the fact that plasma manufacturers say their TVs no longer need a break-in period, but having personally seen the phosphors change in color and intensity over the first few hundred hours on my GT30 (whereas I never noticed it on my previous plasmas), I'm convinced that careful phosphor ageing is more important than ever to maintaining uniformity and preventing damage in the initial period. In particular, since the green blob area on my GT30 was also way more prone to showing IR even after a few seconds, and having watched as the green patch vanished and the IR susceptibility changed after several hundred hours to the point where the same area is no longer any more prone to IR than the rest of the screen, again, this convinced me that the ageing of phosphors definitely impacts on IR behavior on these newer Panas.

But is it reasonable to ask the average person to be this careful on their new TV, especially as 500 hours is 3 months at 5 hours a day? I'm not really sure. I suppose it's a reasonable price to pay if you're actually enough of an enthusiast to be able to tell the difference between plasma and LCD. Let's be honest, if someone's greatest priority is a no-fuss panel they can throw everything at without much worry, then LCD is the best way to go. It may not be as good for motion handling, natural colors, input lag, or black levels, but again, that seems to be the price paid for wanting a totally hassle-free experience. Or perhaps buy an LCD for watching normal TV and gaming, and save the plasma for watching movies.

[Dierk]

To be fair, having seen three generations of Panasonics, from the 2005, jumping to the 2010 and my most recent 2011 GT30, there's definitely been an increase in susceptibility to image retention on Panasonic plasmas.

Ditto. Not a problem on our 4.5yo 42" Pan; became a minor issue on our 2.5yo 50" Pan AFTER the infamous black rise hit; Quick Onset / Short Duration was evident on every 2011 panel we tested (and we had a bunch of them....); but the 2012 is currently showing Quick Onset / Medium- to LONG-Duration IR: not Horribly Intense, but very Stubborn in its refusal to Go Away.

I personally think that in the first 200-500 hours, while the phosphors are settling, the TV should be restricted to full-screen content with absolutely no logos or static portions shown. I know there's debate about the fact that plasma manufacturers say their TVs no longer need a break-in period, but having personally seen the phosphors change in color and intensity over the first few hundred hours on my GT30 (whereas I never noticed it on my previous plasmas), I'm convinced that careful phosphor ageing is more important than ever to maintaining uniformity and preventing damage in the initial period.

After our experience with the Green Blobs on 2011 panels - AND the Pan Svc Tech who said the 2011 required 500 hours to "fully settle in" - I am A) Inclined to agree with your assessment, and B) Feeling pretty dense that this did not already occur to me. As already noted, am planning to take Even More Caution with the ST50 for a while, and Hoping that it will, indeed, "settle in."

[Dierk]

We had a day off, and ran our ST50 with "new panel programming" (slides & full screen animation) for about 6 hours today.

Can still make out a FAINT COPY of the "GUIDE" heading in the upper left corner of the panel, along with an "M" near the upper right corner.
These are both part of Uverse's Program GUIDE - which also gives you the current time in the upper right.
Note that neither the Numerals NOR the "A" or "P" of the Time Display left any IR at the upper right: only the "M" - which, of course, is always displayed whenever the GUIDE is displayed, regardless of the time of day. (X:XX AM; XX:XX PM)

The "ESPN 2" logo has been all-but-assimilated by the remaining "ENCORE HD" Logo, near the lower right corner - but even the "ENCORE" logo is showing signs of dissipating: Can still see it fairly easily on SOME of the solid colored slides (shades of gray, red, or green - but, for some reason, NOT on the Blue slides).

OTOH, the Partial version of the ENCORE HD logo that I managed to place in the Extreme Lower Right corner of the panel (only the upper part of the logo was visible while watching the program, and thus only that part left an image), appears to have "completely" disappeared. Certainly a relief.

Am most bothered by the persistence of the Uverse GUIDE Lettering - that appears on screen for only a few minutes at any given viewing, although it obviously appears a number of times throughout the week. Implication is that Repeated Brief appearances on screen have the potential of leaving the same IR as an image left in place throughout a couple of hours.


Also watched a couple of shows this evening: "Flypaper" - a very interesting little movie! - and then a bit later "Eureka" (tonight's episode, but from the DVR).
Both of these shows displayed a "Slightly Soft" White Logo - as opposed to the Hard (Opaque) Bright White logo / lettering of ENCORE HD; ESPN, or the Uverse GUIDE.
Flypaper was about 90 minutes in length, and Eureka an hour (although probably 45 minutes of actual show): neither logo left any IR THAT I COULD SEE - even when checking out the slides within a few minutes following the programs. (Wanted to check....)

So: some good news, & some "you need to show more patience" news....

[PersianImmortal]

Sounds good. Reinforcement of IR is definitely an issue, particularly with TV channel logos/tickers. People will not just watch a channel for several hours straight, they'll also watch the same channel night after night, reinforcing the IR and uneven phosphor ageing to the point where, by the time it becomes clearly noticeable, it's also become quite stubborn.

Something to consider: when trying to get rid of bad image retention, you can try maxing out your contrast and also using the Vivid/Dynamic mode for maximum brightness. This drives the phosphors harder and hence ages them at a faster rate. It's only to be tried in combination with fullscreen solid color slides and no static portions whatsoever. It should greatly speed up the process of removing the IR. It's risky in that should your content get stuck, or default back to some sort of static player/TV/disc menu, then you have a very high chance of getting burn-in/uneven ageing. But if supervised and you're confident the material is looping properly, it should accelerate the process. Plasma's ABL should prevent any chance of actually harming the set.

The same procedure can be used to accelerate panel ageing in general, but is usually not recommended for the average person once again due to the risks involved if content becomes stuck or goes back to a fixed menu.

This method is probably best for those who are stuck with what they consider to be long-term image retention or burn-in, and thus have little to lose from trying it.

[MobileCortex]

I have an 11 month old 50" Panasonic GT30. I do really enjoy the TV but I've been recently frustrated with what seems to be burn in. The irritating thing is it wasn't even a completely stationary image that caused it. Note that, I did run break in slides for the first 100 hours 11 months ago.

I've been playing the new Mass Effect game multiplayer, and there are a couple of on-screen ammo counters. In a multiplayer game, these numbers change constantly and matches generally only last 18-28 minutes. So, semi-static image, ~25 minutes at a time with 5-15 minute breaks between games. Unfortunately my TV seems to suffer from permanent dark spots where the ammo counters are.

To remedy the issue, I stopped playing the game for a couple of weeks and I have tried running "break-in" slides (full screen red, green, blue, white gradations), the built in scrolling bar, and I've tried just leaving a white screen on for a couple of hours. I have also tried making "reverse" slides where I put black squares in the location of the ammo counters to let those pixels rest. Nothing has fixed it.

Perhaps I should try running slides for several days as suggested in this article. I've been thinking of getting an LCD instead, but maybe the solution is a Samsung plasma. Anyway, just wanted to share my experience...even semi-static images can cause issues on 2011 Panasonic plasma TVs.