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Thread: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

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    Default Elite Fronts vs sub setups


    OK fellow Junkies. I have really often wondered about the interaction between 2 front channel speakers and the sub. So here is how my warped brain works.

    I used to think the "heart" of a great system was the 2 front channel speakers (and maybe center...but for now, let's focus on fronts). OK, fine. In today's world, seems everyone wants a killer sub. Right? Right! Me too. So, the question is this. (let me ramble)


    If you set your fronts in a manner that the majority of lows are being pushed to the sub and not the fronts....then...what is the point of getting a "full range front" if you are only going to deny them showing what they have? Know what I mean? I just can't get this out of my head. Here is a scenario to consider. (theoretical)

    Front speakers are $1000 per pair. They have dual 8 inch drivers and a nice horn tweeter...or any other tweeter for that matter. You spend $900 on a killer sub and bypass all the glory of what those dual 8 inchers have to offer.

    Or - front speakers are same model, only $600 per pair. They have dual 6 inch drivers and a nice horn tweeter... again, you bypass all they have to offer and funnel that sound to sub.


    Huh, hello??? So - why would I buy the $1000 pair if I'm only gonna bypass them to the sub? Am I missing something here? I have asked myself these questions over and over. I just don't get it....
    Denon AVR-988 * Harmony ONE
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    Samsung LN46B550 LCD


    RIP STEVEN 12/26/2013

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    No, you are right on track. I have tried it both ways and for years now have used five bookshelf style speakers with twin subs.

    Jack

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Soooo - how do you feel the overall sound is? Missing any midrange? How about in quiet passages where all you hear are spoken words? What about cello, flute, etc? How does that all sound? That's what I fear....
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawkinsj View Post
    No, you are right on track. I have tried it both ways and for years now have used five bookshelf style speakers with twin subs.

    Jack
    Denon AVR-988 * Harmony ONE
    Klipsch RF-82 II front * RC3 center * RP3 surrounds * KEF HTS1001 rear
    Rythmik Audio DS1501 CI sub
    Oppo BDP-103
    Samsung LN46B550 LCD


    RIP STEVEN 12/26/2013

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    Default

    Doesn't it come down to how much you use your speakers for music? A lot would make floorstanders the better choice in most cases.

    I took a look at the avs sub forum's movie bass list and I started to think that subs are overkill in most movies. For those movies that could benefit you're probably only getting a few scenes where you'd really benefit. If one gets a floorstander with some good bass extension I bet it'll satisfy most people while saving them money.

    I think people need to weigh the cost of the sub vs how much content requires it.

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Well, maybe. I bought my sub cause they touted it as a very musical sub. And, it can satisfy movie buffs too. Again, it's hard to say what I might be missing. Who the hell knows?

    My point is - I'm debating getting smaller bookshelf style speakers for fronts. Wondering if I'll miss something if I do so. It really doesn't pay to audition, cause nothing sounds the same as in your home. It just doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Akkuma View Post
    Doesn't it come down to how much you use your speakers for music? A lot would make floorstanders the better choice in most cases.

    I took a look at the avs sub forum's movie bass list and I started to think that subs are overkill in most movies. For those movies that could benefit you're probably only getting a few scenes where you'd really benefit. If one gets a floorstander with some good bass extension I bet it'll satisfy most people while saving them money.

    I think people need to weigh the cost of the sub vs how much content requires it.
    Denon AVR-988 * Harmony ONE
    Klipsch RF-82 II front * RC3 center * RP3 surrounds * KEF HTS1001 rear
    Rythmik Audio DS1501 CI sub
    Oppo BDP-103
    Samsung LN46B550 LCD


    RIP STEVEN 12/26/2013

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    Default

    In my opinion I'd stay with floorstanders. I feel that even with a sub, floors give a fuller sound.

    I went through this whole debate with myself and tested both as well.

    We are both music people, and we both seem to like the same kind of speaker sound, so knowing that I gotta recommend staying with floors.
    I own some stuff.

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Yeah, I'm beating myself up with this debate. Ugh.
    Denon AVR-988 * Harmony ONE
    Klipsch RF-82 II front * RC3 center * RP3 surrounds * KEF HTS1001 rear
    Rythmik Audio DS1501 CI sub
    Oppo BDP-103
    Samsung LN46B550 LCD


    RIP STEVEN 12/26/2013

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    I think your front speakers should be fully capable down to around 80hz, and at that frequency, a 5" woofer is going to do a spectacular job.

    If you want some seriously awesome speakers, I could make you a set of the speakers I have; can be bookshelf or floorstanding; your choice. Single or dual woofer configurations. A year later, they're still the best sounding speakers I've ever heard. High end sound and driver quality for mid range price

    I just acquired a professional grade Delta table saw and could bang them out quickly. (by acquired I mean I stole it from my dad and told him I'd give it back, lied)
    Panasonic 65" VT60

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Speaking of which... Mytime... I see you in here. What are you waiting for buddy??

    I need to spec out my rear speakers while I have this table saw, but I just have too much damn stuff to do..
    Panasonic 65" VT60

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntruder View Post
    I think your front speakers should be fully capable down to around 80hz, and at that frequency, a 5" woofer is going to do a spectacular job.

    If you want some seriously awesome speakers, I could make you a set of the speakers I have; can be bookshelf or floorstanding; your choice. Single or dual woofer configurations. A year later, they're still the best sounding speakers I've ever heard. High end sound and driver quality for mid range price

    I just acquired a professional grade Delta table saw and could bang them out quickly. (by acquired I mean I stole it from my dad and told him I'd give it back, lied)
    As I said to you as soon as I get the scratch you will build my next set. Since you can bang them out quickly now does the price go down?
    L2W you will be missed.

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Does the price go down?? I was already giving you the "most awesome person in the world" discount and charging Singapore labor rates!


    Seriously though, they are still quite time consuming. Considering the price of components and materials, someone who does this for a living would probably need $2500 for the front 3, but since I live off catfood and cheap beer, I can do it cheaper for friends
    Panasonic 65" VT60

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntruder View Post
    Does the price go down?? I was already giving you the "most awesome person in the world" discount and charging Singapore labor rates!


    Seriously though, they are still quite time consuming. Considering the price of components and materials, someone who does this for a living would probably need $2500 for the front 3, but since I live off catfood and cheap beer, I can do it cheaper for friends
    Sweet. These damn kids are killing me with their aspirations for higher education.
    L2W you will be missed.

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Here's the thing Gos, Floor standers aren't needed for movies, like disco said they do tend to give a fuller sound also most of the time give you a bigger wider sound stage. Now there are book shelf's that will deliver a very big wide sound stage too. The biggest point of the floor standers though is to make the switch to 2.0 music which most audiophiles will tell you is the only true way to listen to music. So in a nut shell more versatility with floor standers.

    All that being said I personally feel a sub has no business being set above 60hz. now most people are going to disagree with me here, but I don't like the way a sub sounds above 60hz I WANT TO HEAR THE MID BASS FROM MY FRONTS FROM 60 hz UP. Like you say what is the point, even with book shef's I enjoy the fine detailed mid bass from the fronts. Do I have a hole in my bass, Maybe but i could care less because TO ME it sounds better.

    One thing to remember here is that we don't NEED the mid bass that towers can give us. It is not all about mid bass more than anything we want crystal clear smooth detailed sound. So if it comes down to budget don't sacrifice sound quality in order to gain having the mid bass especially if you already have a good sub. There are many many bookshelf speakers out there that sound faaaar better than towers except for the fact that they generally cant produce the lower frequencies, but that is where a powered sub comes into play. Now there are large book shelfs that are capable of producing the lower frequencies, for instance the Paradigm studio 20's are rated down to 36hz, now while I haven't run REW when auditioning these I can tell you they do perform very well as far as mid bass goes, and would also like to not that the studio 20's will walk all over most speakers costing twice the money, they are simply stunning, don't take my word for it, look up some reviews and audition them. Did this answer your question??

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Floor standing speakers give you much more flexibility when setting crossover points for your sub. Also, many can't afford a sub when first setting up their system and speakers so with the floor standers at least they get some extended bass. Another factor many fail to consider is that a floor standing speaker is designed to place the tweeter and mid bass speaker at the optimal position, in relation the the listeners ear height/position. The third choice for a floor standing speaker is purely visual.

    Both floor standing and bookshelf speakers have their advantages and disadvantages and the user must decide which best fits their particular needs. There is no rule of thumb that says one is better than another for an intended use, again that is up to the user to decide which sounds best to them. I prefer the front main speakers to have at least a 6.5" driver in it which gives me much greater flexibility when setting the sub woofer crossover point be it used in a stereo only system or a full surround sound array.

    The choice is yours but remember, greater flexibility is your friend...especially if you like to play around and find the optimal sound for your system especially if you have a nice sub woofer which in itself requires time to find the optimal placement/position/power level.
    Last edited by Loves2Watch; 07-24-2011 at 08:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    GOS

    I am running larger (22") MTM style bookshelfs with the -3db point of 45hz with the twin Hsu's crossover at 60hz like caliberconst. So no I don't feel like I am missing anything as these speakers have twin 6.5's. Though this is in the HT setup, I have run them music only many times with an OPPO 83 as the transport. All I may be missing is the last part of an octave on the bottom that a larger cabinet would give, though many speaker companies low frequency claims are either exagerated or can only be reproduced in an test chamber enviroment. In the music only system room I have also tested this with over a dozen different speakers over the past 10 years. Even though I run twin Vandersteen subs in that room, the only speakers I had in house that could reproduce a solid bottom end without feeling the need to use the subs were the Vandersteen 3A Sigs and a very large pair of "monitors" the Reynaud Offrandes. So in both systems I look for what I like in the mids and highs and let the subs worry about the bottom if it is present.

    Jack

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Quote Originally Posted by caliberconst. View Post
    Here's the thing Gos, Floor standers aren't needed for movies, like disco said they do tend to give a fuller sound also most of the time give you a bigger wider sound stage. Now there are book shelf's that will deliver a very big wide sound stage too. The biggest point of the floor standers though is to make the switch to 2.0 music which most audiophiles will tell you is the only true way to listen to music. So in a nut shell more versatility with floor standers.

    All that being said I personally feel a sub has no business being set above 60hz. now most people are going to disagree with me here, but I don't like the way a sub sounds above 60hz I WANT TO HEAR THE MID BASS FROM MY FRONTS FROM 60 hz UP. Like you say what is the point, even with book shef's I enjoy the fine detailed mid bass from the fronts. Do I have a hole in my bass, Maybe but i could care less because TO ME it sounds better.

    One thing to remember here is that we don't NEED the mid bass that towers can give us. It is not all about mid bass more than anything we want crystal clear smooth detailed sound. So if it comes down to budget don't sacrifice sound quality in order to gain having the mid bass especially if you already have a good sub. There are many many bookshelf speakers out there that sound faaaar better than towers except for the fact that they generally cant produce the lower frequencies, but that is where a powered sub comes into play. Now there are large book shelfs that are capable of producing the lower frequencies, for instance the Paradigm studio 20's are rated down to 36hz, now while I haven't run REW when auditioning these I can tell you they do perform very well as far as mid bass goes, and would also like to not that the studio 20's will walk all over most speakers costing twice the money, they are simply stunning, don't take my word for it, look up some reviews and audition them. Did this answer your question??
    And your third paragraph regarding smaller books vs large books is another crazy concern of mine. Yeah, thanks for those comments - they are helpful.
    More rambling - so in the same line of speakers, in general do they have the same quality pieces internally minus an extra driver?
    Denon AVR-988 * Harmony ONE
    Klipsch RF-82 II front * RC3 center * RP3 surrounds * KEF HTS1001 rear
    Rythmik Audio DS1501 CI sub
    Oppo BDP-103
    Samsung LN46B550 LCD


    RIP STEVEN 12/26/2013

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    http://diysoundgroup.com/Overnight_Sensations.htm

    For bang per buck, these bad doys will do very nicely to help anyone who has tower fronts to cheaply check the difference. I dont think there are any alternatives to this speaker for the price, even near it.

    Also, most people do not have the room to run a true full range speaker, so smaller speakers will fine when coupled with an out of the way placed sub.

    Also, remember most subs commercially available today are designed to compliment satellite speakers due to their increasing popularity. These subs range from 6.5" to 10" woofers. A tower/bookshelf combination sub would be best suited with a minimum of a 12" subwoofer, and that at the bare minimum. I suggest to people with the room available, to run 2-15", as the difference is huge, when set up correctly. Not in the SPL area, as two subs will increase the SPL by 3dbs + room addition, but really for a better in room flat response.
    Something' amiss.

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Quote Originally Posted by GOS View Post
    And your third paragraph regarding smaller books vs large books is another crazy concern of mine. Yeah, thanks for those comments - they are helpful.
    More rambling - so in the same line of speakers, in general do they have the same quality pieces internally minus an extra driver?


    Well yeah, some just loose the mid bass driver, but you do also have to consider cabinet and port size too. A change in cabinet and port size can impact the mid bass dramatically. Lets take my speaker for instance the paradigm atom, now the monitor 7 is the same setup as far as the mid range, tweeter and the internal components, they just add two mid bass drivers and cabinet size is increased along with the size of port.

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups

    Quote Originally Posted by ckone180 View Post
    http://diysoundgroup.com/Overnight_Sensations.htm

    For bang per buck, these bad doys will do very nicely to help anyone who has tower fronts to cheaply check the difference. I dont think there are any alternatives to this speaker for the price, even near it.

    Also, most people do not have the room to run a true full range speaker, so smaller speakers will fine when coupled with an out of the way placed sub.

    Also, remember most subs commercially available today are designed to compliment satellite speakers due to their increasing popularity. These subs range from 6.5" to 10" woofers. A tower/bookshelf combination sub would be best suited with a minimum of a 12" subwoofer, and that at the bare minimum. I suggest to people with the room available, to run 2-15", as the difference is huge, when set up correctly. Not in the SPL area, as two subs will increase the SPL by 3dbs + room addition, but really for a better in room flat response.
    I'm going to build a pair of Overnight Sensations just for kicks. Don't have any specific plans for them, but I've got like 3 areas that need some good bookshelf speakers

    Paul Carmody is pretty awesome. He's done some really sweet designs, the overnight sensation being one of them. Very nice guy too
    Panasonic 65" VT60

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    Default Re: Elite Fronts vs sub setups


    Hi GOS,

    owning a killer sub doesn't necessarily make floorstanders worthless. Subwoofers were born to be the .1 in x.1, so their job is first and foremost that of reproducing Low Frequency Effects (LFEs). The better the sub, the better your LFEs will sound regardless of your fronts.

    From a strictly logical point of view, effects that were originally meant to be played through your fronts would be better off played through your fronts, so having floorstanders that can output deep bass would be advantageous even if you had a killer sub. Same applies to two-channel music, which is meant to be 2.0 rather than 2.1.

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